Middle East Construction & Real Estate Podcast

The Digital Transformation of Construction and Interior Design with Kathryn Athreya

• Jonathan Eveleigh • Season 2 • Episode 1

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Prepare to have your perspective on design irreversibly transformed as we sit down with Kathryn Athreya from Roar Design to navigate the thrilling confluence of digital and physical realms in interior design and construction. Kathryn unveils the psychological intricacies and economic potential that the metaverse introduces, and we examine how generative AI is revolutionizing industry practices. From the amplification of accessibility through hybrid events to the avant-garde use of NFTs in digital galleries, this episode is an expedition into the heart of innovation, guided by the experiences of those constructing within Decentraland and the challenges they conquer.

Venture deeper with us into the digital frontier as we dissect the role of AI and the metaverse in reshaping communication and collaboration across industries. Discover how tech behemoths are spearheading virtual meetings that transcend geographic boundaries and how virtual training is redefining skill acquisition. Listen to our firsthand account of developing a virtual art gallery for a bank's regional art competition and learn about the transformative potential of AI in design and construction. With every anecdote and insight, we unravel how these advancements are not just altering industry standards but are paving the way for a new chapter of creativity and efficiency.

As we conclude our exploration, we spotlight the remarkable concept of digital twins and their monumental impact on both consumer engagement and construction precision. From Samsung's remarkable 837x in Decentraland to advanced BIM integrations in predictive analytics, we break down the complexity and benefits of these digital replicas. This conversation is an essential listen for anyone eager to comprehend the financial and skill-related implications of investing in metaverse technologies and for those poised to adapt and thrive in this swiftly evolving digital epoch. Join us for an episode that's not just about predicting the future of design but actively shaping it.

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Jonathan Eveleigh:

Welcome everyone to this first episode of series two of MECRA, the Middle East Construction Real Estate Podcast. Thank you for joining us. I am your host, Jonathan Eveleigh, and I am delighted to be joined on this by Kathryn Athreya , managing Director of Roar Design, one of, if not, the leading interior design companies in the Middle East. With over two decades of experience in marketing and operations in the design industry, catherine is redefining Roar's design philosophy and pushing forward the company's growth goals. Prior to joining Raw in 2018, catherine was head of marketing at JLL. She's also worked in design and branding in Toronto and Dubai, and in 2015, catherine was named one of the GCC's top women leaders at the World Brand Summit.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

In her six years with Roar, catherine has quadrupled the headcount and revenue of the company and is now in the process of launching Roar's Saudi office, as she brings a mix of creativity and practicality to the overall design process. So let's get started and hear what she has to say, particularly about the fascinating topic of the metaverse. Catherine, hi, and a very warm welcome to this episode of the MECRA, the Middle East Construction Real Estate Podcast, and thank you very much for sparing the time in your busy calendars to join me. It's very much appreciated.

Kathryn Athreya:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

No problem, I guess probably the way to start if I can get you to introduce yourself and a little bit about the Raw business for the listeners.

Kathryn Athreya:

Absolutely. Hi everyone. I'm , managing director at Raw, and we're an interior design studio based in Al-Sakhal Avenue in Dubai. We've been in business now for over 11 years and as a multi-sector practice, we cover commercial offices, hospitality, f&b, high-end private residential projects, residential developments, education establishments and retail projects. And then, of course, there's the work we're doing both in the metaverse and with other new technologies like generative AI. So at the core of what we do is this understanding of the connection between psychology and design. So we actually work with a psychologist at the outset of lots of our projects, which helps both us and our clients understand the kind of outcomes they're really looking for within a physical space. So how do you want that space to impact people emotionally?

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Okay, that's perfect. That's a great introduction. Thank you for that. Now you touched on the sort of core theme, I suppose, of this podcast, and that's of the metaverse, so I'm going to go straight into that theme, if that's okay.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

For me, the use of the metaverse within our industry the design and construction industry is fascinating, albeit, it's something I don't really pretend to fully understand, and the reason I was keen to get you to join me on a podcast is because I remember seeing you make a presentation at a conference and it must be well over a year now on how the metaverse is being used by you as raw in the design and planning of the interior design, the idea of buildings, and, to be honest, when I saw what you were doing, it blew my mind.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Now I appreciate a lot of what you presented. Them was in a visual form, which is obviously not great for an audio only podcast like this one. However, I'm hoping that you'll be able to give our listeners a bit of an overview and maybe a greater understanding of how the metaverse is already being used and this potential for even greater use in the future. So what I was thinking was maybe we put some links into the show notes afterwards for listeners to go and have a look at some of the examples for themselves of what you guys have been doing.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Sounds great so why don't we, why don't we kick off by you giving us, if you like, a bit of a layman's introduction or an overview to what the metaverse actually is and what it means in the context of the designer construction industry?

Kathryn Athreya:

Sure, perfect. Okay, so the metaverse is basically an immersive digital space, or, you know, a virtual world, if you like, where people can interact with each other via their three dimensional avatars, so there are sort of characters that you can make to look like yourself, and so there are lots of different metaverses currently, and you've probably heard of the most popular ones, like you know Decentraland, sandbox, rise in spatial, and then obviously you've got the gaming platforms, which are also metaverses. So you've got things like roadblocks and fortnight, and even if you know, you haven't heard of them, I'm sure your kids will be very familiar.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Yeah, probably.

Kathryn Athreya:

So I know all this terminology can be very, very daunting and anyone you know familiar. You know anyone's probably familiar with a lot of pop culture references towards the metaverse. So you know there was the movie in the book ready, player one. You know we also had the recent movie with Ryan Reynolds called free guy. But you know, these pop culture references really frame our ideas and thoughts around what the metaverse is. But the fact is, today it's not just stuff that we see in movies, it is a reality, right.

Kathryn Athreya:

And when we look at numbers, we have 100 million people playing roadblocks and 100 million people playing fortnight around the world. I mean, these numbers are staggering, right. So we think people aren't really, you know, embracing these kinds of environments, but they absolutely are. And you know, yes, most of the people on these kinds of you know games are currently 16 and under. But the generation that is, you know, coming of age and coming into the workforce over the next decade, they are the digital natives. They're the ones that are used to, you know, interacting in these digital spaces. You know, when we look at the economy of the metaverses that currently exist, I mean, if you have kids, I, you know, I know that I have been purchasing digital assets for my child's avatar in. You know, roadblocks for many is. You know different accessories, sunglasses, different hairstyles, different clothes. You know weapons. So we've all been spending money in these virtual realms, you know whether it's through our kids or for ourselves. You know whether we really realize it or not, right? So, yes, currently the metaverse really is concentrated primarily on this gaming Environment, and that's natural, because games, you know, both provide an immersion and an experience which we can't really get in the real world currently, and its users are primarily this generation, see, a generation so much more familiar and comfortable with these digital environments, transactions, products. You know, as I said, I think three quarters of Roblox users are currently 16 and under. So so you know again, these users are, in the next decade, going to be entering the workflow, workforce and really be the ones to understand how to bring, you know, these kinds of environments more into, you know, a more real world use case. So so, looking out the broader applications outside of the gaming industry and how we can use these spaces, and it's a massive, massive opportunity.

Kathryn Athreya:

So, if we look 2022, microsoft paid 67 billion dollars to buy a video game company, activision. That was the biggest tech takeover ever in history and the CEO of Microsoft said it was not about Microsoft buying a video game company, it was about buying a company that has been building the metaverse. So they are, you know, well positioned and they have the tech, they have the knowledge, they have the know-how to really quickly move forward when the time is right. So, you know, To be honest, I think we are really a good 10 to 15 years away from all of this taking off. People kind of say, oh, metaverse had its moment and it's gone. It's coming back. We're really 10 to 15 years away from this kind of all really exploding. But, you know, early adopters, we need to, we need to be there and understand what's happening right, so we can really capitalize on that when it does. So.

Kathryn Athreya:

Let's look at Our industry. So the metaverse is forecast to be a 10 trillion dollar economy. Initially, this number was for 2030. I think, you know, we're a bit further into the future than that. If we look at this environment, somebody's got a designer right and the architecture and interior design community. We have the skills, we have the tech, we have the know-how to do it. So if we can just get our heads around the jargon outside, you know to really understand what we're talking about here and we can work smart. This really is a natural progression for our industry to absolutely own the metaverse design, you know, alongside the game designers, they obviously have a part to play. But if you think about things like designing digital twins of physical spaces, physical buildings, you know creating immersive experiences for things like hotels, retailers, workplaces, doing 3d fly-throughs, bim you know what industry has been doing this for decades. Our industry.

Kathryn Athreya:

Yeah so these skills are Transferable and, and when we look at our clients, it's our clients who are going to want to be there, you know, before we are. So how can we, you know, in this industry, service them when they want to go into the metaverse? So it's the hotels, the restaurants, the retailers. How can we meet them, you know, with with their requirements in this new space?

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Okay, I guess, if I was to capture and I that's great, thank you, that's a really good overview in an introduction, if I was to sort of put a word around some of the stuff that you just said, I guess it would be Something like relevance.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

So we've albeit you've said a lot of other words that's going on is is almost Preparation for the future. We've got to get ourselves as an industry ready for the future and, equally, we've got to make it, um, relevant to our industry because, as you say, transferring those, those Skills, if you like, or experience, or capabilities from the gaming world into into the designer construction industry, um, you know, it's got to be relevant and we've got to make it work for us as as an industry. So, given that, given that it's about, to some extent, preparation, given it's about relevance, what, what sort of? What sort of level of adoption has there been already by our industry? I mean, I get what you're saying. This is all happening very, very, very quickly, but there must be some, there must be some level of take up already, aside from what raw are doing, um, there must be other sort of examples, I guess, of what's been going on.

Kathryn Athreya:

Yeah. So I think there's sort of two parts to this. One is, you know, how can, how can we as an industry, how are we embracing this? And then, how are we Embracing it, I guess, through our clients and what they're wanting to do, um. So let's look at, firstly, at specific use cases, and I would say this actually is across a lot of industries, Not just the design and construction industry at the moment, but the first one really as a use case is communication. So this is especially when we're looking at, you know, having projects with multiple teams and different geographic locations, collaboration. This is a huge use case right right now for the metaverse Um. You know, during the pandemic, meta started really thinking about the future of work inside the metaverse Um and their first metaverse product was actually a VR program that lets you hold live meetings with Abitaz of your colleagues in in a metaverse space. And then microsoft obviously has mesh, which is, you know, a metaverse product that integrates Um with the teams application. So there's that communication Aspect.

Kathryn Athreya:

Secondly, we have immersive training scenarios. So, again, you know, stimulation based training is extremely effective and it's a great way of transferring key skills to trainees. It's a very cost effective way to do it and it's really an optimum way for employees to assess how well staff are putting skills into practice and you know they're making decisions in front of you know real life simulated situations, right. So I think you know training is a second Um, you know really good use case for, for what we're seeing right now, things like corporate events. You know, I think there's, you know, definitely you know, a hybrid situation going on. So we still have physical events, especially now happening in the conference center, but in the conference center sorry, but we have, you know, the metaverse, you know, playing a key role for you know Networking or pre-event networking side meetings, you know pre introductions, and then obviously, people who can't attend events physically can also, you know, attend through a virtual environment. So I think those are some of the key use cases you know, I guess, across multiple industries.

Kathryn Athreya:

But but one of the other things that I want to point out here is sometimes, you know, the hardware that we have at the moment is not quite robust enough to keep up with. We also need, you know, the hardware to catch up a little bit with what's going on. Um, you know from the tech side, because I don't, you know things like I don't think you can actually open the central land from a Mac, for example. These programs are extremely heavy. If you tried to get into one of these metaverses on your, you know, regular pc, it can. It can be, you know, pretty lengthy process. So, yeah, we have all of that going on.

Kathryn Athreya:

So now let's look at from the client side. So you know, and we have so many clients experimenting with this and you know, as I said before, we really need to be able to support them in that space. So last year we did a project for a huge bank in Singapore. They wanted to launch a regional art competition in the metaverse. So they have just all across the region who you know create artworks and you know, usually send, you know, their physical pieces in. So we created this virtual art gallery for them and they created NFTs, so non-pungible tokens, digital versions of the physical artworks, and they were displayed in the virtual art gallery and they even announced the competition winner in that space. But what it allowed for was, you know, people from all around the world, all of the people that were involved, to actually come and congregate in that virtual space and look at all the artworks from across the region. So that was really cool.

Kathryn Athreya:

And you know, last year or no, sorry, not last year, a couple of years ago now we actually bought four plots of land in Decentraland, which is, I tell you, a whole story in itself which, you know, I'll tell you one day. But you know, we designed a show space on those plots of land. There are definitely limitations right now in what you can design. The way you can design the number of plots you have determines the height allowance. You know everybody thinks so I can design something in the metaverse and I have no restrictions, but unfortunately there's still there because it's all based on sort of polygons and how many polygons you have.

Kathryn Athreya:

So it was definitely trial and error. Our space that we designed was a G plus two structure, so we had a slide that comes down and a paddle court. On the ground floor we had an art gallery and a bar and then we had a co-working space and then on the second floor we created a bit of an experimental hotel. So our aim with doing this on, you know, our land that we purchased in Decentraland, was to kind of show our existing clients how they can establish a presence in the metaverse, what they can do and what the possibilities are and you know, through trial and error we kind of got there in the end. But I think this is the thing you have to be there, you have to try it yourself, you have to understand the intricacies of how to work in this space before you can go out there and try to assist your clients, to kind of do the same.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

It is absolutely fascinating. I mean, we could do a whole podcast around just you know the sort of things you've just touched on there. The risk is we get bogged down in perhaps too much need. I want to keep it, you know, relatively relatively high level for my benefit, if not the rest of your life. So I mean that's absolutely fantastic. I mean, some of those stats that you've just rolled out are just incredible. I wanted to also just I guess it's in a similar sort of vein, but I also wanted to ask a question around AI, artificial intelligence. Again, I'm not sure whether that's directly related to the metaverse, whether it's something completely separate, but is AI also playing a part in reforming or reshaping the design and construction process and, if it is, in what sort of ways?

Kathryn Athreya:

Yeah, I mean, I don't think any industry can really ignore AI at the moment. It's pervasive, it's coming for all of us. So I think in the design industry we're really using it as sort of another support tool that we can draw on. You know, obviously, when humans work collaboratively, you know just cutting it out, you know, and just starting it I don't this is for editing I don't think any industry can really ignore AI at the moment. It's pervasive, it's crossing all industries.

Kathryn Athreya:

In our design industry and construction industry, it's really sort of another support tool that we can draw on and use as part of our array of tools. You know, when humans work together with technology, really it always leads to greater idea generation and productivity. But at the end of the day, that's really what it is. It's an ideation tool. It helps with quick prototyping, but it definitely doesn't yet understand things like scale, buildability and of course we have things like local regulations. And I say yet because it's learning right, it's growing, it's understanding more and more, but at the moment we still have these restrictions on things that it can't do.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Yeah, okay, I mean it's definitely work in progress, but I guess, equally, it's happening as such. It's such a fast rate. So so, again, just hanging on to what you've just said, there Is the metaverse being you, or is the metaverse having an impact? Do you think on the whole efficiency or accuracy of the way you, as designers, go about designing buildings?

Kathryn Athreya:

Okay, so I wouldn't say necessarily the metaverse. If we look at AI, I would say it is going to impact the speed, so efficiency, with which we can do things like create multiple options and iterations for clients, and you know, we know that clients love to see multiple iterations and options. So. But again, it doesn't understand things like scale, buildability, materials, regulations. So you know, a lot of what we do revolves around this linkage as well between psychology and design, and AI is not quite there yet. So there's a lot of limitations in the technology right now. But you know, if we look at you know other technologies that the industry is using now more of. You know the BIM technologies. You know they're incredible with efficiencies, how you can sort of change one thing in the building and it, you know, replicates it throughout drawings, and you know, so we also have these kinds of technologies that are really helping with efficiency in the industry as a whole.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Sure, okay, got it. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, it's not just these. These new technologies ultimately can't just stand on their own. We've got to find ways of trying to make them work together, I guess, and improve the whole efficiency of what we're doing. Two more things that I just wanted you hopefully you can put some sort of clarity around Virtual reality and augmented reality. So VR and AR are they also being used? Again, just thinking about the point of trying to tie in a number of sort of different pieces of software, if you like, if that's what they are together, are VR and?

Kathryn Athreya:

AR being used? Yeah, absolutely. I think you know clients love to be able to experience a space three-dimensionally in the design phase, right, and that's what these kinds of things can offer. You know, whether we're talking about the, you know the VR goggles or, you know, even looking at, you know, the 3D modeling technology that we have. It's really beneficial for clients to be able to experience the volume of space and, you know, give them that immersive experience that really helps us in the design stage to be able to, you know, get approvals and have, you know, people really understand the design and layouts and all of those things. So, yes, there's definitely use cases for those in this industry.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Okay, and just again, I guess from Ellayman's point of view, just explain quickly the difference between VR and AR.

Kathryn Athreya:

Okay, so in AR or augmented reality, part of the environment is real, so you're augmenting or sort of adding layers of virtual objects within that kind of real environment, right? So you have that, that it's an augmentation of a real environment. With VR or virtual reality, the whole around, the whole environment sorry is completely virtual and computer generated. That's. That's a great explanation.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

I've got one more. I want to pick your brains on that. I'm against. It's similarly a little bit confused around in terms of a piece of technology or an expression, I guess as much as anything, and that's the. That's the subject of digital twins. Can you explain exactly what is a digital twin and how is it used and how does it contribute to better design and delivery of projects?

Kathryn Athreya:

Yeah, of course. So a digital twin is really just a virtual copy of a real world space, or it can also be a virtual version or representation of a real world object, so it's a digitized twin. So when we talk about a digital twin in the metaverse, it's exactly that a digital representation of a physical store or a restaurant or hotel in the metaverse. I'll give you a really cool example. There's um uh, sorry I might have to cut this for a second, I'm just going to my leisure for editing um, okay, so you have.

Kathryn Athreya:

Um, you know, a really great example of a digital twin is Samsung's 837x, which is just an amazing example of a great physical to metaverse interior space. So it's a metaverse into central land and it's based on their physical store in the meatpacking district in New York and it really was sort of of, of course, of its kind technology playground and cultural destination and it brought in something like 52,000 unique visitors a day in the metaverse during its initial launch. So people can go there, they can experience the Samsung products, they can test them out, they can, you know, they, you know they have this great immersive experience with the brand and and that's why these companies are doing this, they're developing these digital twins in the metaverse because they are tapping into a whole new market of consumers who, um, you know, again we're looking at a different generation here who may not, um, in the real world, be drawn to experience these brands, necessarily, but because they're there and in front of them in the spaces where they are spending a lot of time, they are, you know, garnering this whole new you know, whole new client base really. So so that's, you know, a really interesting thing.

Kathryn Athreya:

When we talk about digital twin technology in construction, it's a bit of a different thing and it's actually quite a bit more advanced when we talk about digital twin technology, because when we look at construction, we're looking at different data points, for example 3d models, sensor data, and then combining that into one platform that can help kind of identify problems before they occur. The modeling, you know, simulate scenarios. But when we talk about digital twin technology in construction, it's more bms of building management systems or or BIM technology. It's a little bit different than a digital twin in a metaverse, if that makes sense it.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

It does make sense. Yeah, that's a great again, a great explanation and an overview. I I don't know I'm sort of getting from some of the things you're saying that these technologies, the Metaverse, ai, digital twins are probably being used more extensively in other industries and to some extent or we've just given an exception, with the digital twins being used in construction. Are we as an industry still playing a bit of catch-up? Do you think, compared to other industries, are they a lot more advanced than us?

Kathryn Athreya:

Yeah, I mean, I think, in general, it's more consumer-facing industries and brands that are really embracing this and have kind of, you know, dived in, you know feet first or head first. So things like, you know, hospitality, hotels, f&b, fashion brands, you know, tech, education, these are the industries that are really, you know, jumping in and trying things out. And so, as I said, I think it's much more relevant right now for those consumer brands and, again, consumer brands that really want to tap into that Generation Z market, people who are trying to open up a whole new consumer base. But, again, you know, coming back to it, where the one's designing space is for all of these brands here in the physical world. So we need to be the ones supporting them in the digital world too. So, again, go back to my earlier point even if we're not, as you know, an interior design business, looking at ways that we can be in the metaverse, we need to be in the metaverse to support our core.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Now there is always that the, I guess, prickly subject of cost around these sorts of new technologies. You referred to it earlier in terms of the need for better hardware. I guess a lot of this, both software and hardware doesn't come cheap. How do you as an organization, or how do we as an industry, justify the investment in adopting metaverse technology, and is it possible to say what kind of ROI return on investment can be expected from it?

Kathryn Athreya:

So, I mean, it's a bit difficult, I think, at the moment. You know, when we talk about these kind of consumer brands going into the metaverse, the ROI really at the moment is intangible. So it's things like brand building, pr, marketing. It's a new channel to acquire customers, acquaint them with brands. You know, as I said, that they may not, you know, see in the physical world, right. So we're looking at those kind of intangible ROIs For us.

Kathryn Athreya:

You know, again, when I talked about our investment in land in the central land, that was a long term play, right, we knew initially we weren't going to have, you know, a huge consumer base of people asking us for the support in the metaverse. But, you know, as I said, we already had the client, the bank in Singapore, who, as a very regulated industry, actually found it nearly impossible to purchase their own land in a metaverse Because, again, we're talking about crypto and you know blockchain and all of these sort of unregulated you know ways to finance and purchase these assets, right. So for us, it was great because we could rent them our land. So, just like any landlord would rent you a space to do an event or a pop up, we rented them our land in the central land to create their art gallery. So I think over time the ROI will you know, it will pay for itself 10 fold. But again, it was not a short term play, it was definitely a long time.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

No, you're right, yeah, exactly, and it's got to be put down as an investment, as in the stage Similar, similar question, I guess, because this is you know I keep saying it's so fast evolving and fast moving, and you've made the point about the next generation of employees that come through our industry and the workforce generally. It's got to be, I guess, impacting the skill sets that are required by companies like Roar for the professionals within the industry. The skill sets have got to be subtly different or will have to be, I guess, in the future. How are you, how are you dealing with that?

Kathryn Athreya:

Yeah, I think to a certain extent. So at the moment, while the design process hasn't really changed, we really will be looking at these digital natives, this next generation, to kind of drive the implementation of these new, you know more specifically, I guess, AI tools, things like Dali2 and Mid Journey, and them teaching us how to bring them into our process and kind of embrace them as part of what we do.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Okay, so, within Roar, what measures are you taking to ensure that your existing staff if you like so not focusing so much on the new staff coming through your existing staff can and do fully embrace this new way of working?

Kathryn Athreya:

Yeah, I mean, we have quite young stuff in Roar and I think having that generation teach us is so important. So listening to them, understanding their process, how they do things, allowing them to use these tools in the studio and integrate them into our design process. So it's really just about diving in and giving it a go, and I had to tell myself I'm not going to break anything by just trying it out. We can all log on to Decentraland and open an account and create an avatar and have a walk around, and that's free for anyone to do that. Yes, your computer is probably going to make the whole process a little slow and it might lag a bit, but we can all do that and demystify things a little bit. So I think the more you can play and experiment and come to understand the possibilities of the technology and what it can do, as well as its limitations, of which there are many, as we've discussed, yeah, of course, I think it's really just making it something that all of us become more and more comfortable with.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

And more scared off yeah.

Kathryn Athreya:

Yeah, more scared off, because it does scare a lot of people and I totally understand why it seems very foreign and bizarre, as I said, I think, even for us. Buying these land plots into Decentraland my gosh, we were so clueless, we just had no idea what we were doing. We didn't even know how to buy Ethereum, which is the currency you need to buy the land plots into Decentraland. It was just I felt like I needed a special degree, but as you kind of work through it, it's like a little challenge. You find people that have done it before you reach out to them, you get their advice and, one step at a time, step by step, you with tenacity, we can do anything. So it's just jumping in and giving it a go.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Having it a go. Yeah, exactly, all right. Look, that's great. Thank you so much. I like to try and make these podcasts around 30 minutes if possible, and that sadly means that our time is up, but it's been great speaking with you, catherine. It's been incredibly informative and interesting. So thank you that. But before I let you go, one thing we do like to do in these podcasts is to leave the listeners with a key takeaway or a nugget of information or a message. If you were to offer one piece of advice to the listeners, what would it be?

Kathryn Athreya:

Yeah. So I think I would just reiterate that this industry has been forecast to be worth around $10 trillion, maybe in the next 10 years, maybe in the next 20 years, and we, as the architecture, interior design construction community, we are the ones that have the skills and the tech to really be part of its development. So our clients, whether they're F&B outlets, hotels, multinational corporates, retailers they are all going to be looking at this space in the coming years as a way to acquire new customers and tap into a new generation of clients. So really, it'll be a missed opportunity for us if we can't support them in designing and building their virtual environments as well as their physical ones.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

Sure, sure, okay, all right, Catherine, that's fantastic. Thank you very much. Thank you for bearing your time to join me. I know you've got a busy schedule today. It has been fascinating. I mean, some of those stats that you've given us have just been incredible, certainly for me, and I'm hopeful that the listeners find it just as informative. So, thank you again. We wish you and Roar continued success for all those great, incredible projects that you're designing and delivering, but also the measures and the steps that you're taking to ensure that you stay at the forefront of the interior design industry. So, once again, thank you, catherine, very much for joining us.

Kathryn Athreya:

Thanks, Jonathan, for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Jonathan Eveleigh:

And so that brings an end to this episode of the Middle East Construction and Real Estate Podcast. Thank you for listening to this one or any of our previous episodes, which you can still find on our social channels. We hope you enjoyed and found them informative and interesting. It really helped us. If you could like or subscribe on our LinkedIn or Instagram pages, thank you, and also a big thank you to the team behind the scenes who do all the real work in getting these podcasts prepared, edited and ready to be posted for you to listen to. Please do let us know if you have any suggestions for future topics or speakers. And until next time, thank you.