Unveiling life as one of Saudi Arabia’s leading architects, with BSBG’s Bart Leclercq’

Ever wondered what it's like to swap tulips for sand dunes and embark on a career adventure in the heart of the Arabian Peninsula? This episode's special guest, Bart Leclercq, head of Studio for Brewer Smith Brewer Group (BSBG), shares his captivating journey from the Netherlands to the rapidly transforming landscape of Saudi Arabia. As he recounts his transition, we get an insider's view of the Middle Eastern construction boom and BSBG's strategic expansion into the Saudi market. Bart's personal anecdotes about settling into life in Riyadh, from navigating the bustling streets to the warmth of its people, paint a vivid picture of a land rich with opportunity and cultural depth.

Navigating the lively kingdom of Saudi Arabia comes with its own set of challenges and adjustments, a reality Bart articulately brings to life. The discussion turns to the professional hurdles encountered, like securing a Saudi 'iqama' and mastering local business practices, while also highlighting the exciting potential seen in the region's construction and real estate sectors. Reflecting on his experiences, Bart provides a nuanced understanding of the local culture's impact on both lifestyle and architectural design, offering listeners a rare glimpse into the day-to-day reality of working in one of the world's most dynamic development landscapes.

As we round out our conversation, technology's transformative role in Saudi Arabia's construction industry comes to the fore. Bart emphasizes how BSBG leverages Building Information Modeling (BIM) for unprecedented international collaboration, and he discusses the innovative construction methods being adopted to meet the unique challenges of Saudi Arabia's growth. Our dialogue offers a comprehensive look at the Saudi market, from understanding the nuances of doing business to adapting to the fast pace of development, ensuring this episode is a treasure trove of insights for professionals intrigued by the promise and potential of this vibrant corner of the world.

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Transcript

Jonathan: 0:08

Welcome everyone to this, our latest episode in series two of the MECRA podcast, middle East Construction and Real Estate. Thank you again for joining us. I am your host, jonathan Eveley, and I am delighted to be joined on this episode by Bart Leclerc, head of Studio for Brewer Smith Brewer Group, or BSBG, as you may know them For sure, one of the leading architectural design companies in the Middle East region. We caught up with Bart to find out more about life in Saudi Arabia, some of the challenges he faced as part of relocating to the country and the opportunities that they, as BSPG, are working on, as well as some of the other developments across the kingdom. So let's get started and hear what Bart has to say about life in Saudi. Bart Leclerc, it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you to this episode of the Middle East Construction and Real Estate podcast, the MECRA podcast. Thanks so much for joining me.

Bart Leclercq: 1:12

Thank you, Jonathan. It's great to be in your podcast. I was really looking forward to this.

Jonathan: 1:16

Good, good, Well, it's great to have you. Thank you, Look. Can we kick off by you giving us a bit of an introduction to yourself, a bit of background and the role that you personally are carrying out in Saudi for BSBG?

Bart Leclercq: 1:33

Yeah, yeah, that's fine. So I'm Bart Leclerc. I'm the head of studio for BSBG in Saudi Arabia. I've been in the Middle East since 2004. I graduated at the University of Technology in Delft in the Netherlands back in 1999. And after that I started working in London with Arab, a big consultant, and in Ireland as well.

Bart Leclercq: 2:01

Soon afterwards I decided to move to Dubai in 2004 after a friend of mine told me that it was an absolute fantastic building boom happening in Dubai and he said he couldn't understand why me, as a structural engineer. I was still in Ireland. So he said get over here and join the excitement. So originally I thought it would be here for two years, like so many people that arrive here in the Middle East. And you know, no surprise, I stayed, just like everybody else stays, I guess, because life is good, tax-free and everything.

Bart Leclercq: 2:34

So I worked for WSB for about 12 years and after that I was with Oracle for about four years, and this was right after they were awarded the LDC role for the Calatrava toll tower at Dubai Creek Harbor. That was very, a very exciting time. So as a structural engineer, obviously I wanted to be part of that journey. So in January 2021 I joined PSBG, who had been present in Saudi already for the last 10 years or so, but are now finally setting up a studio in Riyadh on the back of a very large school project they won there for MISC Foundation and this was a really, really good opportunity for BSBG to explore further opportunities in the kingdom. I guess you know to explore further opportunities in the kingdom. I guess the greatest part of my role is to identify new opportunities and convert these into projects for our business. So, yeah, I've been doing that for more than three years now.

Jonathan: 3:36

Okay, okay, that's good. Yeah, I guess it's a fairly common story, isn't it? People go into Dubai for two years and stay in Belonga. It's a fairly common story, isn't it? People go into Dubai for two years and stay in for longer. And I guess that thing about being selective and with so much going on in Saudi Arabia, I mean it's hugely important, isn't it, to be selective, you know, vital almost. So, yeah, I can see the importance of that, I can see it. And just to sort of continue with that um introduction, could you also give us some context, um, as to how you came to now be working in saudi?

Bart Leclercq: 4:13

yeah, um, well, to be honest, in the in the past 20 years for me living here in the middle east, saudi arabia has always been a bit of a mystery to to me country was really quite inaccessible, and this has been going on for many, many years.

Bart Leclercq: 4:28

It was so close by but still so far away.

Bart Leclercq: 4:33

So I have traveled to many of the countries here in the Middle East Oman, bahrain, qatar but Saudi Arabia was really the big unknown for me, and so the very first time I came to Saudi was in February 2017, I think that was when we were looking at a large project here and I was really, really amazed by, first of all, how large the country was and there was a lot of things happening in Saudi Arabia already at that moment in time, but the company I was working with then at that moment in time were very, very hesitant to make the big step into Saudi Arabia.

Bart Leclercq: 5:14

So this was my previous company. Now, with BSBG, there was a little bit more, you know, a little bit more advantageous sort of spirit than many of the other consults in the Middle East, and I remember that I discussed many of the opportunities in Saudi Arabia at length with some of the key members here at BNSPG and, you know, after they won the large school project, this was a really good time for us to make the jump and actually set up an office on the back of this, and this all happened in January 2021.

Jonathan: 5:46

Okay, okay, so there was more appetite, I guess by the sound of it, from BSBG, oh yeah. And having made that decision, how was the sort of actual relocation process for you, given that I think I'm rightly saying you moved not from the UAE to Saudi, like a lot of people have obviously done, but from Europe? So tell us about that and whether there have been any challenges you've faced with the actual move.

Bart Leclercq: 6:13

Well, you know, I had been back in Europe during COVID for a couple of months and, to be honest, I was really quite homesick when I was there. So I was really keen to get back to the Middle East Now, because I had been in the UAE for a long, long, long time. The logical thing would be to go back to the UAE first for a couple of months to initially work alongside key team members here of the BSBG team to get to know the business a little bit better, the processes, the kind of projects they had done before. I was actually going to make the big jump into saudi arabia. Yeah, this was to get a really really good um understanding of the company's values and standards and the objectives and all the you know, the way of working and the um.

Bart Leclercq: 7:01

The transition was therefore relatively easy, uh, without too many hiccups. I was really really quite well prepared and, to be honest, saudi isn't very, very dissimilar to what I had encountered back in 2004 when I started off here in Dubai. You start this process quite slowly by building up your life again it's a new country process quite slowly by building up your life again it's a new country. So it starts off with getting your Saudi kamat, finding a place to stay, finding a way to move around, getting your driver's license, buying a car. You know everything is in Arabic in Saudi Arabia and that makes it quite challenging. There's only very, very few people that speak English, but we were lucky that we had a bit of help from a company that helped us setting up our business in Saudi Arabia and, because I had lived in the Middle East for quite a while, it was a relatively easy process.

Jonathan: 7:56

I understand that that would have made things you know a lot easier and a lot more straightforward, and you would have got help, I guess, from some of those people as you you say that you would have known and worked with in the uae that were already already, perhaps, over there, but, but, but equally, just other other than other than the fact that you know things were, uh, as you say, a little bit, a little bit slower in the uae at that time, what, what would you say, was the the biggest sort of motivation or the thing that influenced your decision to go to Saudi, perhaps, rather than just stay in the UAE?

Bart Leclercq: 8:30

I think it was the attractiveness of the enormity of the scale and the number of projects that were initiated. I think that was just an absolute catalyst for me. It did remind me very much of 2004, when the sky was unlimited as well here back in Dubai. So many new projects were announced. They were all very, very large. I mean, I was only like 33, 34 years of age back then. I was very, very young, ambitious, and I was also. You know, you get responsibility on projects that you could never dream of when you're back in europe. So I guess saudi does the same thing again amazing opportunities for for young people, for young engineers, for young architects yeah, yeah, no, I, I get that.

Jonathan: 9:21

And and what? What would you say your first impressions were at that time? I mean particularly the culture, compared to some of those previous, not necessarily the UAE, but some of those European locations you said you'd worked in.

Bart Leclercq: 9:36

Yeah, I think what I really liked about the place Saudi and Riyadh was that the people were all very, very, very friendly. They were all very, very engaging. You know, there's a very, very optimistic vibe at the moment in Riyadh because of all the work that is happening, all the new projects have been initiated. People are really, really positive and are really excited about what's happening in the country, so that really filters through every aspect of the of the society, which is which is absolutely fantastic. There's um large mega and giga projects being announced almost on a weekly basis and, yeah, it was very, very similar to to what happened back in 2004 in dubai I.

Jonathan: 10:19

I think that's great and I and I can and I can fully understand why there was that level of excitement for you both, both from a work and opportunity point of view that you've alluded to, but also on that personal level as well, being able to engage with perhaps some more of the locals and do something that you love, like the off-roading. Oh yeah, tell us a little more about how you've adjusted to that lifestyle almost on a daily basis, to being in Saudi. How have you been with that? I think?

Bart Leclercq: 10:53

the adjustment happens really, really quickly. I think the only thing that I really cannot get used to is the fact that they are still driving very, very dangerously in.

Bart Leclercq: 11:04

Saudi Arabia. There's no rules, almost I don't know how they get their driver's license, but it's very, very challenging to be on the roads. There's always people sort of swerving between lanes, cutting you off, speeding, almost touching your car. I mean there's so many little accidents that are happening on a daily basis. That's the thing that I'm, you know, that's the thing I cannot get used to, but the rest is all pretty easygoing actually, I think yeah, I can imagine it's one thing being like that driving in the desert.

Jonathan: 11:38

It's a bit more unsettling when it's on the roads. I can imagine you're going to keep your wits about you Totally.

Bart Leclercq: 11:44

And the Saudis are constantly on the mobile phone as well, which is really, really challenging. I don't know how they're going to get them off those mobile phones while driving. Difficult, difficult.

Jonathan: 11:55

And equally from, I guess, more of a working point of view. Are there any significant differences that you've noticed from the sort of design and construction delivery point of view? Any significant differences? Yeah well.

Bart Leclercq: 12:11

I think from a design point of view, things are pretty much the same as here in the UE.

Bart Leclercq: 12:16

I did notice that some of the contractors are really, really struggling with the enormous deluge of work that's coming to them. So you can see that the market, you know, opened up only fairly recently and, as a result, you know they've been doing the Saudis have been doing work and construction in their own way over the many, many years and there was very, very little influence from outside, from outside, and you know that's actually quite challenging to get them, to make them to step up and to sort of, you know, to adjust to a different way of working, and that can be a bit of a challenge. I think the contractors are really addressing this at the moment. They're learning very, very fast, so you can see improvements happening really really quickly as well as you go, and that's a good thing. So it's all positive, it's all going in the right direction, but it is sometimes it's challenging and sometimes it's two steps forward and one step back, but it will get there, I'm sure, as the market opens up further.

Jonathan: 13:23

Yeah, no, I guess that whole supply chain capacity issue is one that's going to need some pretty careful thought going forward and it probably is already, I guess with the volume of projects needing to be delivered. But equally, there's no real simple answer, is there true? Um, um. I'm conscious that some of this might be difficult for confidentiality reasons, but, as best you can, could you just give us a an overview of the sort of projects that you and bsbg are currently working on in saudi?

Bart Leclercq: 13:55

yes, um well, I actually you can appreciateBG are currently working on in Saudi. Yes, well, actually you can appreciate, jonathan, we are on a very, very strict NDAs on many of these projects. So, you know, unless the client launches it themselves and they announce it in the press, I'm you know I'm very reluctant to give too many, many details, but we're currently working on around 11 or 12 different projects in the kingdom. One of them is a very, very large school for MISC Foundation which is just finished, and for this same client we're working on a really nice new headquarters building, also from MISC Foundation. We are involved in various hospitality projects, including a very luxury aman resort in wadi safar, and this is for for dgda. I'm very, very proud to be working on this very large and very high end. We're doing a few projects with kadiya and with seven at the moment, but I am not allowed to yet give any details on this and I hope you appreciate that I'm sure they will be announced very, very soon on LinkedIn or somewhere else, so keep your eyes open for that.

Jonathan: 15:06

Yeah, sure, no, that's fine, but I completely understand the delicacy, if you like, of maintaining confidentiality. That's the problem. I'm sure the listeners will also will also understand that. Turning to the sort of working environment itself, um, when you are beginning the process of designing a project, does the cultural aspect of saudi arabia in any way influence your approach and, I guess, ultimately the, the delivery of a project from a construction point of view, um, and and does it have an impact on your, your sort of thought process and design practices and construction methodologies and so forth, and if it does, in in what way?

Bart Leclercq: 15:49

yeah, I, I don't think this is the case, jonathan. And then, um, the reason why clients are coming to us is because they they want our approach to design and delivery and they want our expertise to make sure that we, that we give them a successful and high quality project. So so they would really really look at us and say, okay, you've done many of these projects in the past in the Middle East. Show us how we could do one for us here in Saudi Arabia. So in that sense, I think we've got a little bit of an advantage. They specifically come to us because if they wanted to have a local solution, if they wanted to have a local architectural practice that they've worked with already for the last 20 years or so, they would have gone to those local partners. But they clearly want something, something different or, if yeah, a little bit new, I guess. So that's why they're coming to us.

Jonathan: 16:49

Yeah, fair point no, I, I get that completely so. So I think what you're saying is there really isn't there really isn't any significant difference culturally that you have to adapt to in terms of working that you're doing in the kingdom versus what you may be doing as BSPG elsewhere.

Bart Leclercq: 17:05

Correct. I think we're bringing the quality and we're bringing the high levels of delivery certainty. We're bringing that to the kingdom and I think that's something that really some of these clients really want to buy.

Jonathan: 17:21

Yeah, okay, no fair comment. You mentioned earlier the sort of the pace of the whole, the way things are done in Saudi, the design process. Just give us a view of what that design process and, I guess, equally importantly, the decision-making process behind these many massive mega developments and individual projects that we see being planned and even now starting to be delivered.

Bart Leclercq: 17:52

Yeah, well, you can imagine, on all these really large uh projects, and especially these giga projects in the kingdom, the key decisions are all made by saudi leadership and, next to running the country, they're they're heavily involved with every large project that's currently on the construction in the kingdom. It's very, very impressive to see how they are dealing with this and how they're still having time and space to to make decisions on these projects and have a really, really hands-on approach. And it's uh, it's, it's quite remarkable and and and they're you know the leadership is is, I have to say, very, very strong and very, very sharp when it comes to architecture and what it is that they want. It's very, uh, it's quite, quite remarkable. There's a real clear vision there, which I really like no, it is.

Jonathan: 18:44

It is hugely impressive. You're. You're absolutely right. I mean to be honest, from from an, I guess, from an outside point of view, it it looks like things are happening very, very quickly and to some extent, they seem to all be being done at more or less the same time. How do you, how do you deal with that very rapid and high level demand that comes with the sort of huge schemes that we're talking about?

Bart Leclercq: 19:10

yeah, you're you're. That's a very, very valid question. Um, things are happening very fast in Saudi Arabia and I guess the big challenge is how do you find enough architects, engineers, project managers and quantity surveyors to do all this work? And and then, after we've done all these designs and project manager, all these, these design processes, how do you then deal with all the contractors and how do the contractors get enough people, good qualified people? You know that actually is starting with the, with the construction of all these projects.

Bart Leclercq: 19:45

There are a couple of really large projects being announced recently, including the, the expo that's going to happen in Riyadh in 2030, and FIFA World Cup coming in 2034.

Bart Leclercq: 19:59

And there's no doubt in my mind that Saudi Arabia is going to be even more busy than it is already.

Bart Leclercq: 20:06

These are really really good times for professionals in our industry, and I think that even people like yourself that are sort of thinking of retirement within the next couple of years are still going to be enticed to keep on, you know, to not give up their work, but still, you know, sort of be involved, either as consultants or as advisors or maybe sitting on some of these boards, you know. So there's going to be a huge pull into this region, especially into Saudi. There's very little activity happening at the moment in Europe and the United States. When you look at the amount of projects that are being announced in other regions in the world, it is dire at the moment. There's very, very little vision, there's very little things being announced and I think Saudi Arabia is the beaming beacon here at the moment for our profession. So I think there's going to be a lot of really good people are going to be pulled in and I think it's really going to benefit Saudi Arabia and the whole of the Middle East in that sense.

Jonathan: 21:10

I mean you're absolutely right. I mean you referred to it earlier and I agree with you entirely. I mean you referred to it earlier and I agree with you entirely. Both the UAE and KSA markets are incredibly hot if that's the right word and active at the moment. It does remind me also, you said it. It does remind me of the boom period of sort of 2004, 2005 and 2006.

Jonathan: 21:30

The difference, I guess, is that back then it was a boom in the UAE. You didn't have a lot going on in Saudi at the same time, which, of course, is what we're seeing now. So, aside from we've talked about the cultural aspects and the huge volume of work going on, are there any other sort of challenges that are being faced by the design and the construction industry in Saudi Arabia, compared perhaps to other countries or regions?

Bart Leclercq: 22:03

Yeah, so I spoke already about the sheer scale of skilled individuals that we're going to need, but when you look at these large, large projects, it is especially about know the resources around manufacturing, around materials. There is going to be an enormous amount of goods are going to be required to build all these projects, and I think that is going to a couple of that's going to that's going to create a couple of phenomenal, uh, fantastic opportunities for a lot of people, but also some unique challenges to get this all in the country and get it all built, especially on some of these remote sites that you have all across Saudi Arabia where these big projects are being announced. So, yeah, no doubt we're going to have many more discussions about this over the next couple of years.

Jonathan: 22:51

yeah, sure, yeah, I'm sure. And that sort of leads me, I think, into another important issue how important a part do you think sustainability is playing in the design of projects in Saudi?

Bart Leclercq: 23:06

good couple of discussions happening around sustainability in Saudi Arabia, but I sometimes feel that they still have to sort of filter through to the communities and society in general. At the moment, a lot of Saudis are still throwing stuff out of their windows. There's plastic bags everywhere and paper being thrown, you know, just into the desert. There's loads of piles of building rubble all around the Riyadh city center and just every time when they find an open spot, they will just dump builder's rubble there and it's a real eyesore. I think there is a lot of things that we need to do there to get that sorted out. So it still has to sort of. I think a lot of people still have to learn that sustainability is something to think of and that is everybody's responsibility. So still some work to do there.

Jonathan: 24:08

Yeah, still a long way to go. Yeah, I can imagine. I'd like to just move to the subject of technology for a minute, if we can. Bart, are you, as BSBG, using any particular technological tools such as BIM and I know BIM is not a particularly new thing these days, it's been in use for many years but that or any other sort of innovative ways of working? And if you are using anything, how is it impacting how you go about the sort of design of a project? I'm thinking about maybe the coordination between individual design team members who I guess are often located in different parts of the world.

Bart Leclercq: 24:55

Well, we've been working this kind of environment already for years and years. We've got a very, very specific way of working and doing design on projects, and this is also the reason why some of these Saudi clients are coming to us, because they want to take advantage of that delivery experience that we have. We've been using BIM within our company for the past 15 years or so and that means that all our projects are done in BIM. This is without exception. So this is non-negotiable, and this BIM allows us to literally work from one model, and this allows a lot of our sub-consultants also to work within that same model, even if they're remote, even if they're somewhere else far, far away from us, and they still can really easily work within that BIM environment with us and and get and help to, to deliver this fully coordinated design. Um, it is just the way, the way we operate. It's for us, business as usual sure, sure, okay, and what about?

Bart Leclercq: 25:57

what about, similarly, I guess, from a construction methodology or materials being used to deliver these projects, particularly given what we've said earlier about, you know, the logistical challenges, yeah, the locations of the projects and and the supply chain capacity issues yeah, when you're, when you're talking with many of these Saudi developers, in their conversations, in our conversation with them, they are always talking about how are we going to get the resources to these remote areas, how are we going to build this? And many of the things that they want to explore then is how can we make that construction easier? How can we do, maybe, modular construction? How can we build it somewhere in a controlled environment and then ship it off or drive it off and then sort of place it where it has to be? Um, that is still um, you know, that is being explored extensively. Um, this also talks about 3d printing.

Bart Leclercq: 26:56

I have to say I can see some of the developers really really having embraced this, you know, greatly, because it's the only way they're going to be able to deliver the things that they're doing. I'm talking about Red Sea in particular, but I still think there's a lot of lessons to be learned there and a lot of things that we need to try and find out over the next couple of years and see what works and what doesn't work. I think it's exciting to talk about innovation and it's exciting to talk about modular construction, but I think we need to come with some very, very practical and workable solutions that are still not going to look like it is a temporary structure that you're building, you know, and especially with some of these designs that we're making, which are very, very organic in shape and very, very, you know, not particularly very modular, I think it's going to be quite, a quite a challenge really yeah, yeah, I mean you.

Jonathan: 27:53

You would think it's almost inevitable that you know some of those sorts of methods and solutions are going to have to be considered at a company that's looking at entering the market, maybe thinking about participating in the Giga projects like Neon, red Sea, the Line and so on.

Bart Leclercq: 28:09

Yeah, Now the very first thing you need to do is to get yourself pre-registered with these large developers. So you need to find who are the procurement teams, who are the key members there, try to get in contact with them and try and see if you can get pre-qualified. So there will be pre-qualification questionnaires that will be sent out. You need to fill those ones in and on the back of that, you're going to be invited or not. It's actually the only way they are going to be able to distinguish between all the various consultants and different architects and various engineers that are out there. There's very, very many players in the market at the moment.

Bart Leclercq: 29:03

So it's important you do your homework really, really well. You need to do your research. You need to focus on the clients that you want to target and you need to make sure you stick to that plan. You need to not get distracted by all kinds of interesting conversations or a person who says I have no brother who's got this particular project that he's starting up. Don't get distracted by these sort of temptations, I guess. Make sure you do your research. Make sure you do your research. Make sure you make a plan, a very, very targeted plan. Who do you want to go after. Who do you align with? And stick to this plan and make it work for you, because there will be a lot of opportunities. Then if you do stick to that plan and you know you will not be chasing your own tail, then so that would be my advice.

Jonathan: 29:57

Okay, that's good advice. Thank you, yeah, that's valuable advice. I'm going to sort of touch back on a point that we've discussed a couple of times already, but I want to just ask you now specifically are you seeing challenges now or do you think there will be in the future in terms of availability of capable, large and I'll say international type contractors and skilled labour and the general workforce that goes along with that, and, if so, when do you think these challenges are going to sort of manifest?

Bart Leclercq: 30:35

Yeah, no, no, you're absolutely right.

Bart Leclercq: 30:39

There is definitely at the moment a shortage of contractors, but I'm also seeing sort of signs that these issues around the contractors and skilled labor are being addressed, so that's really really positive.

Bart Leclercq: 30:53

Fabrication of building materials and products inside Saudi Arabia will need to increase significantly to deal with the demand that is there and also to deal with the local content certification sort of that. The Saudi government wants you know when you're spending, when you're doing a project. The Saudi government wants to see that if you're getting a contract, you are spending the money in the country as well. So the money that the country as well, so the money that stays in Saudi Arabia. So that means that there is a tremendous opportunities for entrepreneurs to set up businesses in Saudi Arabia and start manufacturing and producing doors and windows, paints, waterproofing systems, everything that you can think of that is required for construction. You know it doesn't matter crane hires, boats, anything there is going to be. As long as you can prove that you're Saudi-based, you're going to be having a lot of business, probably moving forward. So that would be my advice.

Jonathan: 31:55

Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right and there's, you know, as you say, there's such a there's such a long, long-term vision going on here. It's not, it's not like it's just for the next three years or five years. You know you could look forward 15, 20 years easily.

Bart Leclercq: 32:07

I would have thought oh, absolutely, at least till 2034 after the world cup. I think that's going to be another 10 years at least. Yeah, yeah exactly Now.

Jonathan: 32:18

I'm going to be a little bit controversial for a minute. If you don't mind, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit. Everyone listening will be aware of going on at the PS State. There's a progress being launched, already started, so on and so forth, stages of progress being launched already started, so on and so forth. Can you give us and I understand it'll be a very personal view on how likely you think it is that all of the projects being announced, or even some of those that maybe even started, will be completed, or or is there a risk that some might be stopped or postponed or at least slowed down?

Bart Leclercq: 33:00

It's a very difficult question to answer, jonathan. I can see there's a lot of enthusiasm at the moment. There's lots of projects being announced. Time will tell which ones. I hope they're going to all be built. I hope they're all going to be successful.

Bart Leclercq: 33:19

But you know we've we've been in this business for for for for many years. We know that sometimes projects stop for whatever reason or because you know the, the needs of the country, change or the, the focus of where we think we should be spending money, changes that could always happen and you know that's part of the journey. And I think it's exciting to see the ambition and the desire to make changes in Saudi and to build all these big projects. And I think in 20 years' time, when we're both retired and we're sitting somewhere in the world in the sun and we're reminiscing about the amazing opportunities that we had in the Middle East, and we'll be talking about, you know, which things went ahead and which ones didn't, and we'll probably be able in hindsight to say and to reason why certain things went ahead and were so successful and why some of them maybe did stop and didn't progress. So we will see in 20 years' time. That's the only time when we're going to be able to give a good answer to this question, correct?

Jonathan: 34:27

Correct, you've answered it perfectly. And of course, we'll be doing that not just for Saudi, we'll be doing it for other parts of the world as well. Oh, absolutely, quite right, okay, saudi, we'll be doing it for other parts of the world as well. Oh, absolutely, now, bart, we always commit to try to make these podcasts last around 30-ish minutes, 35 minutes, so sadly, that means that our time is up. It's been great speaking with you. It's been really interesting, informative to me and, I'm sure, for the listeners as well.

Jonathan: 34:58

So so thank you very much for that you're welcome however, before I let you go, one thing that we always do in these podcasts is to try and leave the listeners with one key takeaway or a message. If you were to offer one piece of advice to the listeners regarding Saudi, what would it be Do your homework, do your homework well and then focus and be successful.

Bart Leclercq: 35:30

That's it. Do your homework well, that's really important and then focus on the base of that homework you've done. That's it. Best piece of advice no shortcuts, no shortcuts.

Jonathan: 35:45

Don't know, and no distractions, no distractions, no distractions but listen, thank you so much for sparing the time to join me on this episode. I really do appreciate it. As I say, it's been fascinating and informative. We obviously could have gone into a lot more detail, notwithstanding some of the elements around confidentiality, but there was a whole host of other things that we could have covered. Yeah, but sadly time just doesn't allow that. Maybe we'll get you back on a on a future podcast and we'll start talking about individual developments, but but for now, thank you again. We wish both you personally and BSBG, both in Saudi, but all across the Middle East and I also, believe, now in the UK. Is that right for BSBG?

Bart Leclercq: 36:26

Yeah, but we've been in the UK for quite a few years already. So that's, yeah, almost 10 years now. So yeah indeed. Thank you so much, jonathan, much appreciated Thank you indeed.

Jonathan: 36:36

Thank you so much, jonathan, much appreciated. Thank you, bart. Thanks once again, talk to you soon, bye-bye.

Bart Leclercq: 36:39

Bye Jonathan.

Jonathan: 36:40

Bye-bye, bye-bye, and so that brings an end to this episode of the Middle East Construction and Real Estate Podcast. Thank you for listening to this or indeed any of our previous episodes. If you would like to find any of our previous episodes, you can do so via the MECRA LinkedIn or Instagram channels. It would also really help us if you could like or subscribe on those pages. A big thank you also to the team behind the scenes, who do all the hard work in getting these podcasts prepared, edited and ready to be posted for you to listen to. Please do let us know if you have any suggestions for future topics or speakers. So until next time, thank you.